Curse

Pandora's box · Jan 20, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I'm a causual player who mostly plays at the end of the evening. EotN adds a lot in role playing and I find the concept of dungeons really great! Only... Way too often I find myself in a hopeless situation when I finally get to the endlevel monster. Cyndr, Murakai, Remnant of Antiquities... And lots more are bosses who require a special team build to beat them. I did it with Cyndr but I'm getting a bit tired that I have to figure it out time after time. Its not the way I like to play. And its not the way I like to end the evening.

Playing 3 dungeon levels smootly should not end in puzzle where you:
1. have to figure out a completely new build
2. have to capture a new skillset before you can continue

Maybe this is fun for HM players but please let NM players do it the way they like to play most: explore, kill, some puzzles and a satisfactory smooth end of the level. Giving a good feeling when you turn the computer off and go to sleep.

blurmedia · Jan 20, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

What do you mean require a special item built? of those you listed only cyndr has to be blown up with explosives before you can do anything.

And if you cant figure out what to do, wiki is your friend

mage767 · Jan 20, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

I guess you could team up with other casual players instead of having to buy new skill sets, although teaming up can be a difficult process.

Most HM players are selective and therefore usually play alone using their heroes, except in a few elite areas where henchies are unavailable.

The Meth · Jan 20, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

The best solution is to either cheat and look on wiki and base your build around that, or just go in with enough counters in your bag of tricks to shut down anything that can be thrown at you. Every boss encounter boils down to this: either badass caster who can wipe your party if they get 2 spells off, or physical attacker that isn't all that bad but has a group with them. Just plan on countering both of those situations and it isn't too bad. Thankfully even if you can't straight up fight them most bosses you can just bum rush them over and over and they fall eventually.

EotN is supposed to be harder then the other areas, thats why its an expansion.

tekDragon · Jan 20, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

You have to keep things in perspective. True it's normal mode, but we're also talking about dungeons with end chest rewards. Even in NM they're supposed to be tougher. Think of them like end missions in normal mode.

Soo... casual or not you're expected to kick it up a notch on the planning and team tweaking when you enter them. Your best defence against your attempt ending in disaster is to plan ahead as Meth says and look up the wiki. Otherwise get some balance in your team, be prepared to deal with massive elemental AoE casters... they're the ones that really get you.

Oh yeah and if you dont want to have to alter your team setup by an iota... do yourself a favour just dont go to Shards of Orr or Catacombs of Kathandrax (among others).

**Marty Silverblade** · Jan 20, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

I've done most of the NM dungeons and the only one that made me have to come back later (which I still haven't gotten around to doing), is catacombs of Kathandrax. I don't see much point in making it easier.

Btw, about the 'I don't want to have to change my build around because something is too hard', isn't this kind of the point about GW?

treknut · Jan 20, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

As far as Remnant of Antiquities is concerned, I breezed thru the dungeon only to not only die very quickly against Remnant, but do little to no damage to him. BTW I'm a nuker. I read the wiki, took 2 interrupt archers, 1 hero, 1 hench, Jora, Dunk, earth made, healer +1 and Remnant went down in less than 2 minutes.

Arkantos · Jan 20, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

The "omg normal mode is too hard" threads are getting old. Really, they are. So what, you have to bring a few special skills to kill a certain boss, but is it going to kill you? I mean honestly. Just because you have to make some changes and the end boss of a dungeon is somewhat challenging doesn't mean ANet should make it easier, it means you need to get better. If you want super easy games, maybe MMO's (or CORPG's if you want to be more specific) aren't the games for you.

tmakinen · Jan 20, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

I can see the OP's concern as in 'it should be possible to beat every normal mode dungeon in EotN with the same balanced (H+H) build if played skillfully' and I must concur. Normal mode is for casual play and it cannot be expected that players check the wiki before every expedition. The question is, are there NM end bosses that absolutely require some gimmick builds because a standard build just isn't going to cut it no matter how smartly executed. Cyndr might qualify, it is certainly the only one that made me abort the first attempt when it became apparent that my default (very defensive) H+H build coudn't make enough damage during the windows of opportunity. Ilsundur in its current, souped up form, is a pretty formidable opponent as well, and then there's of course Duncan. Other than those three, I haven't found NM bosses hard at all (even Fendi Nin, the fight is stupidly long but not terribly challenging).

Hard Mode then is a completely different issue and I am disappointed if one can just stroll through a HM dungeon without giving due consideration to build and tactics beforehands.

Jaceb · Jan 20, 2008, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Straigth out of the box i can only think of Duncan that requires some new tactics (gimmick? nah :P) to safely beat him (H&H) - two tactics to use. Everything else is safely beatable if you bring one Ranger with bha & pet (optional). Those other two heroes can be anything you want. (tip: BHA heroes can use the skill all the time if you disable all other attack skills: constant daze).

Not that the ranger is mandatory either but that solves a lot of problems. Just a thought since you mostly listed caster bosses which most eotn bosses are actually. I dont think anything else is needed as much as interrupts(daze) against dungeon bosses when you bring that there's usually nothing to worry about. By the way HM can feel like NM sometimes so when the safety is starting to be boring spice it up with mesmer heroes for example.

NM isn't that tough

. man up!.

N1ghtstalker · Jan 20, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

some area's in NM are really hard that is true
think of the Shiverpeaks or some dungeon's endboss: for example the anvil of dragrimmar was insane
also the asura area seems hard with those angoradons
and above all: Molotov Rocktail in the vanguard area

steel singer · Jan 20, 2008, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Oh come on, even with 7 henches you can beat EotN :S

You just don't play a mending/healing breeze wammo and you're fine..
AND before you bought it you could know that EotN should have been harder than the others.. Because they are for lvl 20's only they made it a tiny bit harder..

Squishy ftw · Jan 20, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by steel singer

Oh come on, even with 7 henches you can beat EotN :S

You just don't play a mending/healing breeze wammo and you're fine..

In that case I would like to see you do shards, vloxen, slaver's with 7 henches and a meleemancer.

Pandora's box · Jan 20, 2008, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Hmmm, maybe I should make some things clear.

I finished Prophecies, Nightfall and EotN with my hench/hero team without much problems. There were some encounters which required extra investigation but with the help of this forum and the Wiki every problem could be solved.

After completing a game I continue playing, either ‘causual’ in NM, doing a quick game at the end of the evening, or more prepared (sometimes even in HM) in the weekends. During these sessions I notice that entering dungeons unprepared in NM mostly is suicide. Yet, to my opinion, playing in NM should never lead to a situation where you find yourself out of options at the end of the level (not talking about restarting and preparing yourself – I think that is the nature of HM). What I expect from NM dungeons is this:

-If your team can clear the dungeon smoothly than it should have no problems with the endlevel boss.
-If the endlevel boss requires a differend teambuild than your team should not be able at all to progress in the dungeon, so you get the message immediately after entering: go back and rebuild your team!

I don’t mind investigating builds. Its often fun. I do mind playing some hours late at evening, expecting a smooth game, and than get a nasty surprise just at the end. For HM this should be ok. For NM… No. There is another thread around about making HM more interesting, and I fully agree with the suggestions there: more challenge, better rewards! At the same time I would say for NM: if you can get to the endlevel, than you should be able to beat the boss –always!- but the rewards may be smaller.

Longasc · Jan 20, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Sorry, you have Ursan Blessing and a ton of consumables.

I do not think GW should be a game where one bad build of a very average player is enough to conquer all areas. Normal mode is already easier than it was before Hard Mode was introduced, do not forget that.

Thierry2 · Jan 20, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

NM is easy enough already.. you can H/H Almost everything..

Pandora's box · Jan 20, 2008, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Sorry, you have Ursan Blessing and a ton of consumables.

I do not think GW should be a game where one bad build of a very average player is enough to conquer all areas. Normal mode is already easier than it was before Hard Mode was introduced, do not forget that.

Did you read my post above?

Actually I'm a smiter/protector and I did not care capturing the 'changeling' skills (wolf, bear) because they don't seem to add to my teambuilds.
As for the consumables: if it takes 3 or 4 consumables per dungeon, than that will cost a hell lot of skillpoints, gold and materials. There would be no profit at all clearing dungeons this way

Burst Cancel · Jan 20, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

You haven't provided any sort of justification for why things should be as easy as you want them. It's 'normal' mode, not "steamroller roflcopter lolmode". There's no rule (written or unwritten) that says that just because you can beat a bunch of normal monsters, that the boss necessarily falls to the same tactics. Have you actually played any decent game where the boss doesn't require any adjustment to beat?

Further, as others have said, dungeon bosses can be beaten H+H without special builds. It might not be as easy or efficient as using a gimmick build, but normal builds will work if played well.

angmar_nite · Jan 20, 2008, 02:36 PM // 14:36

In every game, let it be a shooter or an RTS normal mode poses challenge. Winning should never be a guarantee. You could always die, and you still have to think.

tekDragon · Jan 20, 2008, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandora's box

Yet, to my opinion, playing in NM should never lead to a situation where you find yourself out of options at the end of the level (not talking about restarting and preparing yourself – I think that is the nature of HM). What I expect from NM dungeons is this:

-If your team can clear the dungeon smoothly than it should have no problems with the endlevel boss.
-If the endlevel boss requires a differend teambuild than your team should not be able at all to progress in the dungeon, so you get the message immediately after entering: go back and rebuild your team!

I don’t mind investigating builds. Its often fun. I do mind playing some hours late at evening, expecting a smooth game, and than get a nasty surprise just at the end. For HM this should be ok. For NM… No. There is another thread around about making HM more interesting, and I fully agree with the suggestions there: more challenge, better rewards! At the same time I would say for NM: if you can get to the endlevel, than you should be able to beat the boss –always!- but the rewards may be smaller.

I'll have to respectfully disagree. What you're asking for is not normal mode but "easy" mode and that's not happening. Understand this, GWEN is a high level expansion meant to contain elite content, by all measures NM in GWEN should be harder than the rest of the game. However, in many respects it isnt. You can use HnH to beat everything in GWEN normal mode though some areas are riskier than others.

The above poster is right in saying that there should always be a risk that if you screw up badly, or that your build is horrendous, that you should die. But normal mode is very forgiving that way, you dont get booted at 60% dp and you can try and try again... and believe me it's possible to beat some bosses that way (I know I did when I was unprepared). Heck in elite areas in most of the other campaign if the party gets killed you get booted outright, but dungeons and GWEN NM missions have resurrection shrines. In that way GWEN normal mode is actually a fair bit *easier* than most of the other campaigns.

Chances are if Normal Mode has become that much of an issue for you, and I mean no disrespect here, that your builds arent very good. Luckily for you, the forums here are usually very helpful. Why dont you post your builds and se if we can't help you. What's your skill bar? Which heroes are your brining and what are their bars? Which henchies?

I dont have that much experience monking myself but I can tell you honestly, if you can mangle Pain Inverter into your bar that should help against a number of nasty AoE bosses (even in NM).

So there you have it... GWEN NM will likely not get any easier.